Morgan Eklund wrote:

> A few short things:
> with democracy i mean real democracy, not an us-dominated dictatorial
> fasade. I believe that democracy is not possible without for example a large
> respect for the human rights.
>

mim3@mim.org replies: OK, then democracy is not possible for most of the
world.You may be fed and clothed in social-democratic Europe, but most of the
world is not in quite so comfortable a position.
 

> Socialdemocracy DO trust the people. we trust them enough to allow them to
> critizise us and remove us from office if they want.
>

mim3@mim.org replies: If no one is threatening voters' lives -- because
communismhas been achieved -- then you can believe the results of an election.

> That your enemy is evil doesn´t give yourself the right to be evil too. I
> believe dictatorship  to be evil.
>

mim3@mim.org replies: You are comparing ideas with realities. That is
idealism. In reality dictatorship is the only choice offered.

The social-democracy of which you speak ONLY appears in Europe and other
imperialist countries as a privilege of peoples benefitting from
superexploitation of the Third World.
 

> No, Marx didn´t have many democracies to compare with. You do however. Or do
> you believe Marx analysis to be correct for all time?
>

mim3@mim.org replies: The democracies of which you speak are all
OPPRESSOR nations. They benefit from the lack of democracy in the Third World.

> I belive he did a very good analysis of the world anno 1848. Times change.
> You have to be able to revisionise marx teachings if you will ever be able
> to survive.
>

mim3@mim.org replies: What Marx said in 1848 is still true for most of the
world, just not for the imperialist countries that have since improved their
conditions at the expense of the Third World.

The bottom line is that there is no democratic option for the majority of the
world's people. A few deluded Europeans who do not stop U.$. imperialism does
not change the situation of the world's majority.
 

Subject:
             Re: People's War is the only right way.
        Date:
             Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:39:09 +0100
       From:
             "Morgan Eklund" <m.e@beta.telenordia.se>
 Newsgroups:
             alt.politics.socialism
 

Yes, i might be an idealist. But i believe in high ideals; the democratic
socialism. The good thing about that ideologi is that you can formultate the
details for yourself as long as you follow the broad picture.

I DO know that the third world is suffering from a lack of democracy. And
that most of that lack is because of what the western nations are or have
been doing. That is a major problem. And i think we can solve it. If the
democracies of today work together we ca do it. And remember that in the
general assembly of the UN the US currently have not much more to say than
most other countries.

It takes a lot more patience and time to work with democracy and reforms,
true. But it lasts so much longer. I don´t wan´t to build a good world on
bad methods. It doesn´t last.

Here in sweden, the main reason for us having a relatively developed
democracy is that very few lives were lost in the struggle. The workers-
largely led by the socialdemocrats and the socialdemocratic union, LO, -they
made peaceful but strong strikes and they accieved a lot through peaceful
political work in a state that was much less democratic than sweden is
today.

What is wrong in believing in a dream? What is wrong in believing in high
ideals? Politics for me is not the science of cold justice but the warm
loving engagement of the heart, for a dream that is the wonderful essence of
creativity and solidarity.

You should also know that in the majority of the worlds nations there are
socialdemocratic youth organisations working either within or for democracy.
To be precise there are 130 organisations in a hundred nations. And that is
only the FULL members of the international democratic socialist youth
organisation, IUSY.

Pleace at least read my arguments before dissmissing them as the crazy words
of a class-traitor

live in peace and democracy, comrades
/Morgan

Subject:
             Re: People's War is the only right way.
        Date:
             12 Feb 1999 22:51:45 GMT
       From:
             mimist3@geocities.com
    Reply-To:
             mim3@mim.org
 Newsgroups:
             alt.politics.socialism
 
Morgan Eklund wrote:

> Yes, i might be an idealist. But i believe in high ideals; the democratic
> socialism. The good thing about that ideologi is that you can formultate the
> details for yourself as long as you follow the broad picture.
>

mim3@mim.org replies:  The broad picture is for us to get to a point where
thereis no coercion--known as advanced communism or communist anarchism. In
conversation with you, it boils down to what do you consider fair conditions
to have an election?

Then it boils down to what is the most effective road forward,
a matter that should only be resolved by comparing realities, not realities with
ideals.

> I DO know that the third world is suffering from a lack of democracy. And
> that most of that lack is because of what the western nations are or have
> been doing. That is a major problem. And i think we can solve it. If the
>

mim3@mim.org replies: Good, then maybe we agree. Our middle name is
"internationalist." If you are a real "internationalist," you are our friend;
even if you want social-democracy in Sweden. It's your attitude toward People's
War OUTSIDE the imperialist countries that is the real test. I would like you to
stop talking about Sweden and talk about right and wrong in the Third World.
Then I will ask you about your duties to helping peoples oppressed by U.$. imperialism.

We do not advise People's War in the imperialist countries at this time. Mao
himself said it was unwise unless the governments were "really helpless."

If we could carry one out relatively successfully we would do it to draw off the
U.$. imperialists from the Third World. Even if you don't agree with the idea of
People's War initially, you have to consider reality Morgan: If you had one
successfully in Sweden or other European countries, that might cause a major headache for U.$.
imperialism and a lot of people might get more democracy as a result.

> democracies of today work together we ca do it. And remember that in the
> general assembly of the UN the US currently have not much more to say than
> most other countries.
> It takes a lot more patience and time to work with democracy and reforms,
> true. But it lasts so much longer. I don´t wan´t to build a good world on
> bad methods. It doesn´t last.

mim3@mim.org replies: Look at the abolition of slavery. It took thousands of
years.

But in the end, it had to be accomplished by force and we are all much better
people for it. If you had grown up seeing some people as slaves, how can that fail to
affect your point of view? Persuasion is not the more lasting method when it comes to
problems of class self-interests. For some things it is simply necessary to wipe out one
side by force. Wipe out the slaveowners by force and everybody becomes better as
a result.

You do agree even by your idea of "democratic" or by your ideals that we are ALL
better people because of the abolition of slavery?

> Here in sweden, the main reason for us having a relatively developed
> democracy is that very few lives were lost in the struggle. The workers-
> largely led by the socialdemocrats and the socialdemocratic union, LO, -they
> made peaceful but strong strikes and they accieved a lot through peaceful
> political work in a state that was much less democratic than sweden is
> today.
>

mim3@mim.org replies: Yes, I am aware of the Swedish history and I was anadmirer
of Sweden before I became a communist. You must realize it is just
one outnumbered case in world history. Once you see how it connects to the rest
of the world, you will change your mind--unless you do not have internationalist
values and value Swedish life above other people's life.

You see, the U.$. imperialists learned from watching the long history of
European wars that it was not a good idea to have European wars if more could be gained
spending the energy on colonialism or neo-colonialism. So when you had that
great general strike earlier in the century and continued to uphold social-democracy,
U.$. imperialism did not send in the Marines.

In World War I it waited till the last minute
to intervene, because U.$. imperialism always understood how easily such wars
could end up weakening the state. In World War II, the United $tates stayed out
of it again, until attacked. The U.$. Marines were landing all over the world to
put down small countries, but dealing with powerful ones with armed forces or
alliances with such was a different matter.

So you see, even in your own case, the root cause of your success is FORCE.
Because of the huge violence in intra-European wars historically, the U.$.
imperialists would rather have you as a junior partner than as a war opponent.
Even France, England and Germany have learned to patch things up relatively
speaking and focus more of their energies on neo-colonialism.

Besides, you now share similarities to U.$. imperialism. You share from the
economic benefits from the U.$. imposed world order, so U.$. imperialism wisely
suspects that you Europeans will complain only up to a point. Morgan, it is
people like you who are the most interesting of Europeans--on the brink between
imperialism and the proletariat. How many can be won to the side of
anti-imperialism is a very important question.

Sometimes, the U.$. imperialists get BEAT. The case of Vietnam is a case where
it admits it paid a much heavier price than expected. It thought it was getting
into a little shoot-out and instead it got more than it would have taking over
Greece. Greece, as shown in the movie "Z," and as is documented is a warning to
smaller European states from U.$. imperialism not to get too far out of line.

Now here is my question to you Morgan, are you meaning to tell me that the
Vietnamese were not right to use force against U.$. imperialism? Would it have
been wrong for a People's War to arise againt Pinochet?

Then what about today in Peru? You know social-democrats serve in a military
dictatorship's cabinet. And do you expect the starving to accept elections as
legitimate? Even the World Bank admitted that all the food in Peru even if distributed would
only feed 90% of the people.

Do you expect people dying from preventable diseases to believe elections occur
under fair conditions?

How can there ever be a fair election when everyone knows that voting for the
socialist or  communist or even a [Third World, ed.] nationalist might result in children dying in
the streets at the hands of U.$. Marines? How do you expect voters to even know
what is going on when people are too afraid to say based on history (reality)?

> What is wrong in believing in a dream? What is wrong in believing in high
> ideals? Politics for me is not the science of cold justice but the warm
> loving engagement of the heart, for a dream that is the wonderful essence of
> creativity and solidarity.
>

mim3@mim.org replies: The thread is what will work. What will work to defeatU.$.
imperialism is important. That is what this thread started being about. You
claimed revolution ain't gonna work. Now you are saying uphold ideals.

> You should also know that in the majority of the worlds nations there are
> socialdemocratic youth organisations working either within or for democracy.
> To be precise there are 130 organisations in a hundred nations. And that is
> only the FULL members of the international democratic socialist youth
> organisation, IUSY.

mim3@mim.org replies: And as soon as those have any success, the U.$. Marines
land or the equivalent of contras get military aid. The longer you hold your
nose up when it comes to talking about reality, the more we suspect that your
ideals aren't what you say. Can we let our politicians say one thing as their
ideal and then let a different reality continue? We certainly don't want politicians
to behave that way, and so we want to get rid of that behavior in ourselves as well.

In your case, I am inclined to think you might be a friend, an internationalist
social-democrat, which is the minority of social-democrats.

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