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> Marx and Engels on homosexuality
Red Skyscraper
Posted: Jan 5 2005, 05:13 AM
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QUOTE (Che y Marijuana @ Jan 4 2005 @ 09:24 PM)
I thought you were a materialist? Are you a materialist, or was Marx a godly being that was never wrong at all, not even when it came to his own personal opinions that he never claimed were scientifically backed components of Marxism?


Nice try, attempting to use my words and try to state the same thing I just told you in a vain attempt to win this argument against me. It means now that you don't have anything further to say, and that I'm right.

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And saying his ideas in general (as expressed in his ideological works) are relevant, does not mean accepting them all. The use of the words "in general", means not in every case. Thus your claims of contradiction are meaningless.


Actually, it does. Still, your statements reveal what you truly are, anarchist.

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You call me a dogmatist, and then say one cannot pay attention to what Marx actually said and judge it on its merits, rejecting what he never claimed to be scientific in favour of up to date facts and experience.


You are dogmatic because you cite his words like a bible, and never study all of his works and think carefully enough.

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Marx proved no such thing. As for his morals, once again, morality is by definition subjective and unscientific. A materialist cannot take such things and accept them whole, without judging them rationally.


Oh yes he did prove such a thing, you liar. As for morals, they go along with Marxism. People have to follow a code of conduct, of proper action, something you anarchists don't seem to understand.

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Conflict. Interesting. Is it not true that the conflict that moves us is progressive and ongoing, that one can never go backwards, but must always travel forwards? Attempting to return to the social standards of early Capitalist society would be a grave mistake dialectically. There is a reason science and technology have prompted us to move forwards and recognize the evidence that homosexuality is natural.


Used my words and twisted them again. First of all, yes conflict is constantly going on, but it doesn't always move forward, it also moves backward. Otherwise try really hard explaining why some socialist countries turned back to capitalism, for example, or why historical kingdoms rise and fall. There is conflict which goes back and forth, and is cyclical and in constant movement, never just linear, that's what bourgeois historians believe. And you obviously don't understand your ideology of anarchism. Anarchism is seeking to turn to capitalist practices of the past, never going into dialectical materialism, never paying attention to the facts. Science and technology prove that there is conflict. But this conflict doesn't prove that homosexuality is "natural." What it proves is that it is a disease that grew unchecked among humans, and must thus be medically corrected, like blindness, and psychological diseases.

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To be a fact, you must prove it. The reality is, the evidence points to your opponents' views being a fact. So if you wanna oppose the evidence, you must show your own. You tell me that homosexuality presents a problem, but don't say what it is, you tell me it is a virus, but don't cite sources. The reality is, the general consensus scientifically has been that homosexuality is natural and harmless. For you to discount the years of research that back that up, you must provide some evidence and a logical counter-argument of your own.


Prove it, you mean, in the same way you "prove" all of your bullshit ideas? Hah, sorry to break it to you, but homosexuality being a disease is a very well-known fact and detrimental to the health of society. The majority of the people out there don't want to associate with homosexuality because to them, homosexuals represent a clique of oppressive people as bad as the Jews, because they want people to bend to their arrogant will, by harping on their ideas again and again. We can cure these people of their genetic ailment, which is not a virus, contrary to what you claim. Only the ultra-leftists think it's all the rage to consider gay rights as "revolutionary," just like they claim supporting Israel is "revolutionary."

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Not just declare it as fact.


I declare it as a fact, because it is a fact.

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If it is a problem, tell me how. If it is like blindness, tell me why homosexuals aren't asking for your help.


Because unlike blind people, homosexuals are more arrogant, and thus they must be convinced that they need help, just like a capitalist must be coerced to change his position, and why a psychopathic killer must be forced to given care and helped.

If you can't accept this, you shouldn't even bother helping us.

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Responding to my argument that blind people ask for our help, while homosexuals don't want your prison camps, by saying "you just don't want to help blinds do you?", is not sufficient.


Actually it is sufficient. Capitalists don't ask for our help, but we give it to them. By saying no to help, you are saying no to helping anything, and surrendering to our enemy. What you say are the words of a little child stuck in that sandbox, who refuses to crawl out, who refuses to even try to make a difference, who refuses to accept real facts, who never listens to anybody, who foolishly thinks he has this "god" complex, when in fact he knows truly nothing, and does not know how anything really works, except in his mind, a mind filled with hot air.

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Again, greed, capitalism, the poor, are all things Marx scientifically proved needed to be dealt with. The blind and the deaf ask for our help, and are scientifically proven to have handicaps. In the absence of either scientific evidence that society must "cure" them, or an invitation from them for you to uproot them and "help" them, wasting resources on this fantasy of yours is meaningless.


The blind, the deaf, the homosexual, are also part of helping those in need, and making change. You say you want progress so much, well, curing the world from homosexuality is progress, because it is correcting an error made by human civilization, correcting the conflict that humanity has gone against nature, and because it went against nature, homosexuality grew. This must be corrected by providing medicine for them. If you say no, you are taking a position akin to liberalism, a position that advocates "freedoms." You can't let a disease run free, you must cure the disease with excellent health care, and help people.

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When your help isn't asked for, of course there is. The burden is on you to disprove the facts that are well known. If this was a well known fact, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The reality is, the scientific community rejected your arguments long ago, much to the chagrin of the Capitalist world. Science pushed forwards despite the objections of Capitalism. If you want to disprove the massive body of evidence that the general consensus is built on, you must provide the evidence.


Actually, child, the burden is really on yourself, to really, truthfully prove to me that homosexuality is natural, that these people should be left alone. The scientific community proved that homosexuality is a genetic psychological disease, but due to the current politically correct mindview taken by capitalism, which is a code word for giving special treatment for a select very small number of people, they kept this finding quiet. Science also proved that the earth was round and not at the center of the universe, but scientists were silenced then as well. It happens all the time. It is politics. Only those who advocate capitalism would say homosexuality is ok.

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You also provide no reason to consider homosexuality the same as polio, except your own lack of intelligence.


Lack of intelligence? My son, it is you who lacks the intelligence. I have provided good reason, saying over and over it was a health condition, just like polio. You could not even make one iota of an attempt to prove to me that people who are gay are so by choice, that they are practicing something "natural." Instead, you cite the same ultra-leftist rhetoric over and over again, just like you do with everything else here, without listening to us. Therefore, your ignorant statements shall be considered empty, and worthless.

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How does homosexuality harm consenting sexually mature persons? How does it harm society?


I have said many times how it harms society. Prove to me that it does not. Prove to me really hard that homosexuality is ok. You cannot do that, not without your tired old rhetoric.

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Read up on bonobos, and stop making up rediculous falsehoods


First of all, I said rare, not never. Learn to start reading, not smoking your head off on another joint of marijuana. Second, a bonobo is but one species among billions, and bonobos aren't building socialism, or worrying about material greed, but use "homosexuality" as a means of communication, yet you can't really say they're gay because you're using the human definition of gayness, and a bonobo rubbing asses would be more akin to men shaking hands, not gay behavior. A human homosexual is a side-effect of the natural world, who emphasizes his behavior arrogantly, rather than accept that he is ill, so that doesn't work. Third, I suggest you stop citing Wikipedia yet again, it just gets more and more amusing to see you even try.

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But it doesn't spread like a virus.


It spreads like blind people. Nature didn't get a chance to wipe out the affected populations once civilization arrived. Rather than killing them off, as the Nazis might suggest, we help them with medicine and put them back into society. That is our important goal, which can never be ignored, to help these people. If ignored, then you might as well ignore all other parts of socialism as well.

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Are you telling me that if it actually happened, you would be annoyed? Obviously, you wouldn't. So of course we all would love for that to happen, even you. But none of us think it would. That doesn't matter though, because once we do take them out, we will have no need for nations.


Of course your methods have proven to fail over and over again countless many times. Thus we will fight our way, not your "utopian" dogmatic way. Our system works, we've scored countless many more victories. You have accomplished nothing. You could not even keep a little commune alive without it degenerating into an unorganized cesspool of primitive behavior.

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Fuck the national and cultural factors. After revolution, there is no need for borders. Period. Nations will die. The state will die. The world will not care about borders or cultures, only on how best can humanity move forth, and how best can we use our resources cooperatively to advance society.


Again, the nation is not the nation-state. You need to buy a dictionary, so that you can actually start learning how to read. Nations will stay, cultures will stay, groups will stay, borders will stay. Bourgeois nationalism will be gone, proletarian nationalism will grow strong, and we will peacefully co-exist. That is internationalism, not throwing out capitalism all at once, as the dogmatists claim.

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Accepting the aspects of Marxism that have been scientifically and rigorously proven, while rejecting the aspects of Marx's own moralisms which are separate from it, and rejecting those aspects of Marxism that have proven to be dubious, is not dogmatism. Taking his own personal opinions as truth without judging them, those which he never claimed to be scientific conclusions, is.


No, what is dogmatism is citing words out of context as "fact," reducing Marx to a biblical factor, and not bothering to study every aspect of Marx, to understand all of his writings, and understand just who the man was. Dogmatists pick and choose what they want to believe, they don't pay attention to reality, to change, they think one solution fits all.

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Anyways, you must tell me, do you agree with the phrase "workers of the world, unite"?


According to the true definition, of workers among nations working together to overthrow imperialism, which as a result helps workers in other nations, and thus proletarian nationalism grows and saves the day.

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The proletariat is international. So while there will be localisms, that influence local culture, these will not be a "national culture" that is in anyway given any importance. Considering there will be no nations.


The proletariat is national, with an international goal. That is what is being advocated, not the need to overthrow everything that exists for some new utopia.

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I never said anti-semitism isn't a fact. Anti-semitism exists, and there are plenty of examples of it right here. My point was that the claim was that Marx is an anti-semite, if you read Marx's article that they claim proves it, you would see that it couldn't be furhter from the truth.


Yes you did. You called it stupid because you didn't want to consider it fact, when in reality it is a fact.

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Marx was not an anti-semite.


Marx was an anti-semite, just like he was anti-anarchist. Grow up and start doing some serious reading, kid.


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"Islamo-Fascism" is a term coined by Trotskyite Christopher Hitchens. Quite revealing, and shows we must support the Iranians and any other anti-imperialist resistance movements in the Middle East even more.

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mim3
Posted: Jan 5 2005, 11:10 AM
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Marx was anti-Jewish, anti-Catholic and anti-Protestant.
He believed the religions obtain their force from material conditions.

He blamed the bourgeoisie for Protestantism and said it enslaved Germany
and dismissed Catholicism as "backward" and representing feudalism.
Religious wars also came from material conditions--underlying material conflicts.

There is a combination of Liberals, Zionists and neo-Nazis with an interest in making it appear that Marx singled out gay pedophiles and Jews to be scape-goated.

The Liberals never see anything as systematic and they also have an interest in defending neo-Nazis and Zionists. The neo-Nazis want to lay all economic exploitation at the feet of the Jews, to let imperialism off the hook. Scapegoating is also easier than looking for evidence of the causation of problems.

If anyone wants to make an argument about Marx scape-goating, it needs to be done by comparison. Show us where Marx said heterosexual pedophiles were good. In fact, he and Engels both believed NO sex occurred with mutual consent yet under capitalism.

"Full freedom of marriage can therefore only be generally established when the abolition of capitalist production and of the property relations created by it has removed all the accompanying economic considerations which still exert such a powerful influence on the choice of a marriage partner. For then there is no other motive left except mutual inclination."

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/wim/cong/gender98.html
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