Reply to Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:02:53 -0500 (EST) message by
   mim3@mim.org. "/" indicates paragraph break in quoted material.
   
   Mim3: ... O tried to support you on Turanians and Blacks by saying he
   doesn't understand cats. / Look where you are leading people?!
   Turanians and Blacks are compared with pets of lower thinking orders.
   Well I don't spend much time talking with cats. I leave the science of
   that to vets and biologists.
   
   B replies: Here MIM expounds the standard American bourgeois
   assumptions, and reveals scientific ignorance re. cats. MIM also
   revealed such attitudes on page 35 of MT13 when they say "We agree
   that it does not make sense to describe humans as 'better' than
   insects, but it would be correct to describe humans as 'more complex,'
   and to make distinctions based on that difference." The science of
   complexity is a new field, and has not yet (to my knowledge) produced
   an objective way to measure "complexity." Any statements made
   comparing the complexity of organisms is bound to reflect unscientific
   cultural assumptions, in MIM's case tracing back to Western humanism
   and ultimately to Christian religious doctrine. The eminent biologist
   Stephen Jay Gould has argued that some bacteria are more complex than
   humans, based on DNA length.
   
   Currently, there is also no scientific basis for the statement that
   "cats are of lower thinking orders than humans." This too traces back
   to Western hierarchal ideology, and is the same type of thinking that
   produced theories of racial superiority. It traces back IMO to Western
   people acutely FEELING different from animals, their own women, and
   people of other races (modern neurology suggests this is due to brain
   miswiring). Typical klippoths, they turned this AWFUL feeling
   upside-down to IMAGINE that they were better due to this, because they
   originally felt inferior. See Vad's statement that he sees Tani as
   "perfect" (and therefore himself as "imperfect"). This leads back to
   solipsist non-logic also, i.e. "I'm a human, I am not a cat, therefore
   I am superior." Such judgements are non-materialist and utterly
   unscientific. See my posts to Karl's grotto re. supposed human
   superiority.
   
   Mim3: I do talk with Turanians, Blacks, FN--everyone. To do so, you
   MUST do so with the ASSUMPTION that we are ALL-KNOWABLE to each other.
   Otherwise, you should do EVERYONE a favor and just say you think it's
   impossible and not waste time. It's the same thing for the stupid
   hetero pseudo-fems. They say men cannot understand wimmin and yet they
   create feminism to do what? To improve their relations with men. Those
   who assume communication is impossible should not be spreading hetero
   feminism! ..
   
   B replies: Why not follow through on your solipsistic logic, since you
   cannot be from all of the above ethnic groups: you are not them,
   therefore they are inferior. Much better talking with creatures of
   "higher thinking orders." Since science cannot measure this, this
   logic must rely on white culture assumptions. So, since white men are
   the smartest and most advanced and complex people in God's creation,
   why waste time talking to inferior life forms? Etc etc. See where
   wrong ideas lead?
   
   No, no two creatures are "ALL-KNOWABLE" to each other. That's crazy!
   But that does NOT mean communication or interaction is futile.
   Creatures understand each other THROUGH their relations/interactions;
   see Mao for that one. IN REALITY, every sentience IS alone ("Each
   persyn an island"), yet we are ALL here in constant interaction, and
   our sentience COMES FROM that very interaction! This relates to the
   very deep question of "what is sentience?," which Tani addresses this
   in her recent posts about the ToD, which MIGHT NOT be the result of
   "world controllers", but instead might have an emergant DIRECTION
   (i.e., IT has a Will resulting from the interactions and history of
   those in it, JUST AS *I* have a Will manifesting from the interactions
   and history of the cells and molecules in ME). Tani suggested that the
   ToD might have a Will that is BIGGER than the wills of the individual
   people inside it, JUST AS I have a Will that is BIGGER than the wills
   of my constituent cells, organs, etc. Consider, nowone AGREED on
   making this Will, it just AROSE of its own.
   
   PHEW! Back to the point, these interactions peoples/people such as
   FNs, Blacks, etc, their will is not necessarily to make you have
   omniscience of them, duh, they interact with you for their own selfish
   purposes. I don't mean this in a judging or moral sense. See Mao,
   there is no such thing as omniscience. Either way, just because people
   cannot attain omniscience does not mean that communication is futile.
   
   Mim3: You keep talking about breeding humyns--now even in opposition
   to getting them Robocop bodies. This eugenics crap, like I said
   before, it goes in a Nazi direction.
   
   B replies: T has said (to me at least) that eugenics means such things
   as good prenatal care, good health, good nutrition, etc. This is not
   like Nazi-style eugenics (e.g., eliminate genes for whatever)at all,
   which T has opposed, since it can make unforeseeable changes on the
   affected population. E.g., remove genes for sickle-cell anemia and you
   also remove existing resistance to malaria. BUT good nutrition and
   care can eliminate Fetal Alchohol Syndrome, for example. T has also
   said that e.g. blind people could contribute to the species by using
   their OWN different abilities, perhaps combined with eg sonar
   technology. T addressed the idea (MIM's??) of growing babies in
   test-tubes or whateve----humans that adapted such technology would
   become NON placental mammals, WIERD. Some INSECTS do something like
   that, with larvae in artificial cells where adults FEED them.
   WIERD---does MIM even realize what they are advocating, or that they
   might be advocating something that some INSECTS ("LESS complex"
   according to MIM?!?) have ALREADY done as PROGRESSIVE for humyns!!
   
   B