Nah, I like that picture just fine.

I really can't understand how it doesn't disturb you in the least to see these Nazis pretend to have anything to do with Communism when they reject Marx as "that old moor" and call the difference between Socialism and Capitalism a myth invented by Marx.

If the fact they're Nazis doesn't annoy you, that should at least. I know Fascism isn't a big deal to you.

This post has been edited by Che y Marijuana on Feb 12 2005, 07:45 PM

It does not necessarily. Even if Marx was a utopian internationalist (which is quite doubtful), not all communism is Marxian. What about the Paris commune?

Hence, it is not simply called "Bolshevism" but "National Bolshevism." Please don't make me go into semantics.

Im not repeating myself again.

No it is not. You are looking at it in the context of modern partisan politics ("Liberal Democrats" "Conservative Republicans," etc.). Liberalism is the existing form of bourgeoisie "democracy" based on the market whereas conservatism stresses an emphasis on tradition and an organic society. The US is a perfect example of a liberal democracy, no matter what your idealistic views about it are.

No, we don't simply oppose the social consequences of capitalism, get that through your thick head. But we am not ignoring them, like people like you do, and simply looking at the economic factor. You think that by simply taking away capitalism, all social problems will go away. While it is true that capitalism brought many of them about, simply eliminating capitalism won't make them go away. They are ingrained in society and measures have to be taken to solve them, even after capitalism is destroyed, if you don't want capitalism to come back. The governments of Eastern Europe collapsed because of the bourgeoisie consumer culture they were receiving from abroad and the people had an idealistic vision of western "democracy." They saw the life of excess people were living in the US and decided to risk (and ultimately destroy) their societies in pursuit of the American Dream. The DPRK is still on its feet because its leadership realized this.

And your point is? They still were not advocates of liberal values, and the New Black Panthers are even less so. MLK certainly was, that is why he is honored in western society while the Black Panthers are either demonized or their real agendas are sugar coated for the mainstream capitalist and ultra-leftist utopian (much like Che's is).

Well, there are many of Marx’s theories that I simply don’t agree with. And I can hold Russia and especially China as proof, as many in the countryside did revolt against the landlords and the revolution was based on the peasantry in China (and in revolutions in other third world nations). Marx did predict that a revolution would first happen in the west, and he was wrong obviously because he did not account for the world order developing which includes nations that were still in their feudal stage and the development of “Progressivism” in the west that laid the burden of the western worker on it’s third world counterpart to maintain the order at home. Like I’ve said many times before we’re not in the 1800s, wake up.

I believe in secularism. What’s your point?

Im not talking about boycotting products, Im talking about nationalizing the industries to prevent foreign hegemony. There would be no need for a popular campaign to boycott products.

Im not talking about the NBP or Russia, they favor a return to the Soviet system. Im talking about the west.

No, the Soviet model is much more built on what I propose. Again, a collective economy with the existence of small private property for everyone, like a family business. Capitalism would not exist in the first place and the importance of the private sector would not grow, unless the leadership corrupted it, like they did in the USSR after Stalin.

The same rhetoric the faction that killed Maurice Bishop spurted out.

Damn, “immediately” must mean 74 years then, because that is what the USSR did.

I don’t “dislike Marx” I just don’t agree with some of his ideas, and agree with some. You are an anarchist, not a Marxist, yet you claim to be one because you use the more utopian aspects of his ideas for your agenda. At least I don’t pretend to be something Im not. I am not trying to fit into a cliché.

Right, and the the Checka must be a part of those “shock troops sent in to save capitalism” then.

True. Then stop saying liberal values come from the working class. Stop relating the black struggle for independence with reactionary bourgeoisie concepts.

Again, you are throwing a bunch of things in the same pot in a manner that if you support one, you have to support all. The black struggle certainly comes from working class pressure, the gay “struggle” does not. It comes from bourgeoisie disco-fetish subculture

Racism, forced multiculturalism, sexism, faminazism, globalism, degeneracy, etc.

No, the Soviet system.

No, I rightfully believe the NWO is attempting to divide Russia in order to dominate them. Divide and conquer.

No, I will eliminate capitalism by eliminating the basis of its expansion. Read Lenin on imperialism for fuck sake.

I don’t care what it was called. Why is Spain called Spain and not just the Republic of Castillia?

Right, and that has been ever so successful.

They would be “destroyed” in a sense because they would cease to be a bourgeoisie and become citizens, and those who persisted in damaging the nation with their self-interest would be purged and destroyed. That is what Im talking about.

I am not a capitalist and I am not supporting the survival of capitalism.

16 year old girls who have sex are not above their whole populations and I will not support them if it works against the interests of the general population. If it does, I will. Ideally, I prefer secular nationalism with a socialist economy, but that is what I want, not necessarily what they want. Is that so hard to understand?

No, society does. A healthy society not shaped by bourgeoisie consumer culture does the right thing.

So puppet dictatorships and rebel movements are not tools of imperialism?

So essentially, sticking your big Pinoccio nose somewhere in the other side of the world and playing the hero who brings “liberty” and “democracy” to “those backward freedom-hating rag-heads.” Like the neo-cons.

To apathetic nuctases such as yourself, maybe, but not to the people. Its not just lines in the sand, a nation goes beyond that. It is the spirit of a people, weather what unites them is simply common experience and language or cultures and traditions. Korea is a nation, regardless of its division, as are all Arabic and African peoples. Hispanidad may not constitute a nation but it is still a cultural and spiritual concept. I feel kinship with the Spanish and all Latin-Americans, and yes Filipinos and Equatorial Guineans.

Society, of course.

No, because children need to live their childhood and there are things that they need not learn about at such a young age.

So you support the abuse of children? You’re more disgusting than I thought.

So you are going to deny that there are bourgeoisie nations and proletarian nations? Besides, today it has even gone beyond that. The world is dominated by tribalism and economic cliques, they work for their own benefits, not for those of their nation. The point of communism is the benefit of most people at the expense of the least right? Then is it not bad for most of the nation if a clique within it benefits at most of its population’s expense? Though arguably, their interests may serve the rest of their nation positively, particularly in the US, that is not their purpose.

No, what I mean is that it is different to be working class in different nations. You cannot deny this, no matter how much you fall back on your anarcho-dogmatist “we are the world” rhetoric. Its common sense.

I am not going into the neo-con’s anti-nationalism again because I already slaughtered you in this debate and this thread is getting annoying enough. Besides, that’s not my point.

He “does not see it” because he is not really exploited. Yes, he may be getting the lower end of the bargain in his society but he is not struggling for his livelihood and could really care less if the state of the world continued the way it is (and is actually happy, fanatically pleased with it in most instances). The US working class is in a situation in which they aren’t well off enough to know what’s best for them and to be hypnotized by the media and consumer culture but aren’t in a condition bad enough to know it by instinct. Not to say that there aren’t members of the working class who do, and I commend them, but I have no hope for America and can never feel any kinship with the country that enslaved and brutalized my people for the last 100 years, so I really could care less what it does beyond staying out of the rest of the world.

No, they are served by being given what they deserve as hard working citizens in an organic society and ending the privileges of an elite clique by taking capitalism away.

Look kid, Im tired of repeating myself to you only for you to repeat your rhetoric again in a different form (or in the same one, as in this case). I already told you that people who serve their individual interests over those of society, ie: the capitalists, are traitors as they work against the benefits of most of their nation. The working class has no concept of “universal brotherhood” based on class among them, they are merely interested in creating a just society where their rights are truly represented. The bourgeoisie is interested in the lowest common denominator and living a life of excess. If that means starving their own people for foreign interests, so be it. The common people make up the community, the flag is to represent them, not to the police state or its corporate puppeteers. It’s not that hard to understand for people who are not blinded by dogmatism and worn out ideas.

*sigh* not repeating myself.

So it is not in Iraq’s national interest to expel the imperialists? Quit being delusional.

OK, Mr. Dogma.

Because it was overthrown by the oligarchy, which is my point (and Im sure you would have supported it, just like you support the ICP in their collaboration with the imperialists).

"The 20th century was a bipolar century, but the 21st is not going to be unipolar. The 21st century should be multipolar, and we all ought to push for the development of such a world. So, long live a united Asia, a united Africa, a united Europe." - Hugo Chavez

Bourgeoisie internationalism is very much in favor of a unipolar world.

Yes, great. Loony’s like you will ultimately serve the expansion of global capitalism by fiercely opposing anything that dosen’t serve your narrow minded ideological clique and undermining the anti-imperialist resistance. Luckly Woodsites such as your self are a joke in Venezuela, otherwise we would se another Grenada.

Wow, you’re a broken record aren’t you. See above.

Allende was weakened by ultra-leftists who refused to support him against foreign hegemony. People like you make it “impossible.”

They were supported by Hitler and Mussolini, not “put into power” by them. Besides, who cares. I told you, it was corrupted by Franco and his reactionary loonies. Primo de Rivera’s intentions were decent, he did not want civil war to erupt.

Look how I ignore you.

Capitalism was in crisis in the third world throughout the post-colonial period. Why did fascism not arise there instead of CIA-backed bourgeoisie puppet dictatorships?

Preach on brother, Ill be waiting to meet you and the upper-middle class hippies and three or four workers behind you as the people crush you with no more remorse than they crush global capitalism and the NWO.

As will yours, in expanding global capitalism.

Like I said, he fought for national sovereignty, something you disapprove of. Furthermore, he was an “anti-semite” (a person who opposed Jewish tribalist dominance) according to your buddy Malte.

They may decide weather they want to form part of it or not, as long as they don’t support the division of the Russian federation and its dominance by part of the NWO. Regardless, they were for over 150 years and had no problem with it.

Allright, the rest of your post is more of a broken record and I don’t have time to become one myself and respond to all of it. Only what is relevant.

Bullshit. Where have I said anything racist? Besides you can’t base jack shit on what I say, first of because I am not an NB (I am a Peronist with elements of Bolivarianism and National Revolutionarism) and because I am not affiliated with the NBP in any way, and even if I was, I am one person. Nice try, you lose.

I take great offense to that and you show your ignorance on the matter. I know member’s of Aztlan and MeCHA personally, they have done a lot for the Hispanic community in California to be called an “ethnic mafia” by you Anglo-Judaic liberals who are only trying to assimilate us and bring us into the system with your welfare.

That is what I mean (except destroying the states and the borders). If she is loyal to the society she moves to, which she obviously is if she moves there for reasons other than the material, she can do whatever she wants as long as it dosen’t harm society.

No, massive immigration is a problem that arises due to neo-liberalism. Immigration should not be ended completely but it should be limited by destroying neo-liberalism and ending the material purposes of immigration.

I would feel no hostility towards them, as long as they did not work for foreign domination against their people, but I would feel no more kinship with them. And, like I said, hispanidad is not a racial concept.

It depends on what period we are talking about. Hitlarianism and Strasserism are bitter opponents, Hitler killed off all active Strasserites and National Bolsheviks such as Nikiesh.

If you say so.

I see nothing racialist about that. Just what the DPRK wants to do in uniting Korea. They are not attempting to dominate other peoples, they simply want the people of different ethnicities to be loyal to Russia and leave if they are not.

HAHAHA, so Im the liberal now? No one is preaching "tolerance" to the point of submission. That is idiotic. But people need to learn to see things outside of their thick heads and their tiny ideological cliques. I personally don't give a shit about fascism because its dead.

Furthermore, Hitler killed all Third Position adherent's in government. Nice try.

I don't know. Maybee because a message board is for discussion and not for dungeons and dragons, alter-ego type "cyber-wars"?

Wow, you truly are a nut who over-analyzes everything. I didn't "actively" do shit. I am not affiliated with the NBP, nor did I even give my opinion on the matter of them having Mussolini on their site "without criticizing" (there is a lot of writing in crylic under it anyhow, unelss someone can translate it, I rest my case). I don't give a shit.

Proof?

It is for people who play the race card, such as yourself.

1. I don't give a shit about your pathetic feud with the RCP or with RAF. Im just pointing out the stupidity of your witch-hunting.

2. I would like to see proof of any of this beyond what kids post in message boards.

And then Im supposed to be the conspiracy theorist.

And dogmatists like you would? I am not talking about all of mim. I don't care, I stopped reading it a long time ago. Its just that article and the people causing shit at ISF and AWIP are pathetic freaks with no concept of reality.

I am not basing jack shit, even on most things posted in forums, which is what you do. Sorry to burst your bubble, but most of what you will find in the internet is trash.

And you call yourself a maoist?

I think the crucifixion of Berserk by you dogmatists is utterly ridiculous. In fact, if you speak many communists from the East and from the old days (such as the writers from Northstar Compass which I spoke to over email once and found fascinating) you will find that they agree with 95% of Berserkers ideas, such as progressive patriotism, anti-NWO, anti-Jewish domination, and anti-decadent western culture (drugs, sex, etc).

The problem is you western intellects would rather crucify one of your fellow comrades over fighting your own bourgeoisie. When it came down to choosing the western "left" choose the yankee bourgeoisie over the Eastern European, Asian, African, and Latin American socialists. Death to the anglo-saxons, regardless of what they claim to be politically!

mim3 for MIM:
You mean the Brezhnev-era garbage that put Gorbachev in power--yah, you are right about the "old days." The Black Hundreds, the Zhironovskys and the Gorbachevs all came at the same time as part of a general Liberal attack on Stalin's socialism. None of that shit got very far under Stalin.

Fascism IS a Western decadent ideology. Mussolini was the most central founder. It had extensive military power and got no where, because it represents no new and progressive historical force.

The Third World fascists that have existed have ALWAYS been lackeys of the West, receiving Western military aid. The reason for that is that Third World fascism is too weak to stand on its own--anywhere. It can only be a smokescreen for the NWO--trying to divert discontent with the NWO to safe channels attacking Jews and gays. That's why the German Social-Democratic Party and French equivalents gave safe harbor to the Nazis/fascists in their parties as we now know from historical documents--both during and after World War II.

That's why pathetic neo-Nazis have to latch onto Mao. They can't get over that they're nothing without the major Western powers, while Mao came to power beating both landlords and Japanese imperialists, then U.$. ones.

Your obsession with sex, drugs, Jews, homosexuals etc. is parallel to the openly Liberal one and just as divisive.

Northstar Compass is not filled with "Brezhnev era garbage." Honestly, I sometimes wonder where the hell you come up with the positions on your statements.

Where did Iron Feliks refer to fascism? Nice dodge, but that was nothing but a whole load of rhetoric.

Neo-Nazis don't latch onto Mao, only die-hard dogmatists like you guys do. Mao would have had you guys smashed to smithereens by the Red Guards if he were alive today and your "organization" was in China. Give me a break.

His "obsession" is a very damn important one. All these things, which are the result of the economic conditions creating a bourgeois liberal culture, must be cured, smashed, fixed, etc. How you can endorse these sort of things makes me laugh.

Northstar Compass is an updated version of US-Soviet solidarity established in the 1920's. NSC writers back Stalin, Lenin, Marxism-Leninism, Maoism, Juche, Cuba, etc it is a very broad non-dogmatic non-secterian paper. They also constantly attack Brezhnev, Gorbachev, Havel, Tito, and other traitors.

They do a great job on defending Stalin, publish numerous books defending Stalin, and are good at exposing jews like George Soros.

The third worlds military dictators were not "fascist" but rather just more authoritarian capitalists. Fascists believe in centralism and more workers rights, while the dictators of Latin America forced capitalism down the throats of the people (IE, Pinochet). Jews and the yankee liberals were worshipped by the "military dictators" that were puppets of the yankees.

I support third positionist governments in Latin America, such as the one of Peron or Chavez today. Would you categorize those as fascist?

I sure would not. 3rd Positionists and Communists fight for pretty much the same exact short and medium term goals, so I don't agree with communists calling them fascists.

I believe MIM are the only party in the US that can be considered genuinely communist, but throwing political swear words around so loosely is only dividing our masses of supporters around the world.

Sex, drugs, homosexuality, and other things are the most primitive of human instincts, it is what the bourgeoisie and judeo-bourgeoisie use to keep people in line. Don't you understand this, as a genuine communist who agrees with the world communist theory on the west and western ideas ?

Under socialism people are taught to think higher than their primitive instincts, to rise above this culturally and ideologically. It is only in the west where glorification rape, torture, murder, sex, drugs and other degeneracy are used as propaganda to win young people over.

This post has been edited by Iron Feliks on Feb 20 2005, 08:29 AM