Pro-Hoxha observor can see who has the evidence on their side, RCP=u$a or MIM I have generally considered myself to be a Communist in thought for a few years now, during which I've progressed through various stages like most of us western kids. I am now and have been for a year or so been taking the pro-Hoxha line. (I had a four of five page debate with a MIM member at ISF forums last August in which insults, ideas, exchanges as well as some general agreement emerged. I was "Cassius Clay" if you wish to look it up.) I write the above purely to show to MIM's critics of the theory that Labour Aristocracies dominate the western world that I'm coming from a position that doesn't favor MIM automatically. But to me having read MIM's material from your web page, read and anaylsed statistics and such from elsewhere and just generally taken one look around me it is quite obvious MIM is completley right. The "workers" in the western world are bought off; they are clearly not at this moment at least (and haven't been for a while) "revolutionary." I do not claim as of yet anyway to be a expert on factors of economics and such. But reading some of the debates you have had with RCP and others it's clear that they come up with no scientific basis or facts to contradict what MIM is saying. All I am seeing by MIM's critics on this matter is purely rhetoric which quickly becomes worn out in face of the material you at MIM are showing. Whatever else happens in the future I do believe that MIM and others who supported this line will be remembered as not only greatly contributing to the theory and practice of Revolutionaries in the future, but also as the one's who remained scientific Marxists in the face of fake Communists spouting a line that was long dead. I hope you will forgive me for pointing out something that a womyn from Africa said to me at a meeting of progressives that I was at a few months ago. As I said, I'm no expert on economics, but since MIM's critics don't show any knowledge either I'll forgive myself. She said "Here (in England) there is a gap between people's wealth, but it's only people richer than others. Yes there is a gap, but all the nice stuff, the TVs stereos, trainers seems to be available to everyone. There is no real poverty here." And it's very hard to disagree with that. Oh sure there can even be a pretty big gap between the rich, i.e. bourgeoisie and those that either fulfill a "traditional" petty bourgeois role and people who were once exploited workers. In the end the vast majority still live a relative life of luxury compared to the world's proleteriat and oppressed. Marx said the "workers had nothing to lose but their chains," but it's clear that there is no need to quote Das Kapital to show that this is no longer the case. There is plenty to lose. From reading MIM's webpage it would seem you take a position that the Labour Aristocracy, or petty-bourgeoisie faces a choice when it comes down to it. Side with the proletariat or the Imperialists. Sadly right now the majority would side with the Imperialists against the world's oppressed. In the poorer areas of Britain that is where the votes for the fascist BNP come from: no doubt you'd see this in France with Le Pen. Typically a single mother living on an estate while living on 50 pounds a week would blame her problems on "Pakis, Niggers and Immigrants." The vast majority of populations in western Europe and Amerikkka particularly if they are white support Imperialism when it comes down to it. Sure many in Europe at least are of the opinion that something as blantant as Amerikkkan-British Imperialism in Iraq is wrong, but they fail to analyse and criticise the system that caused this current war in any depth and when shown what it is would rather stick with the status quo. Even indirectly and unconsciously they support Imperialism. I support Imperialism through being one of the mass consumers eating and wearing clothes which are produced through the sweat of a world's oppressed. Finally I do have some questions on this though that I would appreciate some opinions/answers on. Does MIM believe that in Amerikkka there is a slowly growing "Black" Labour Aristocracy? This is not to say the vast majority of Black people in the United States do not still constitute an oppressed nation. But rather that this may not be the case in a hundred years time if Imperialism remained. Looking at something like the whole "Hip-Hop" culture or something this might be the case. Or Colin Powell and C. Rice, or the cops or the military. As I said I don't know or have access to the stats at least so I am, when it comes down to it not ready to form an opinion on this matter so anything you can provide would be appreciated. Also when do you believe this came into effect? I mean to say when do you believe the white working classes in Europe and Amerikkka became a Labour Aristocracy? I know you quote Lenin from 1921 but I myself would not believe the vast majority of workers to be bought of at that time. I dont believe Lenin actually says that does he? I've read your section on France in 1968 and that seems pretty spot on. I.e. the massive increase in wages and benefits and such. But what would your opinion be on say the Miners Strike in 1984-85 England? In solidarity! mim3 for MIM replies: I'm sorry: I had thought we had some articles on that miners' strike, but I was unable to find them. Perhaps we'll come back to that in the future. On the question of the Black labor aristocracy, you have hit on another reason exactly why the multiracial or multinational "one working class" idea is wrong. Namely, there is already huge pressure on Blacks to conform to exploiter ideas of unity, partially coming from within the Black nation petty-bourgeoisie. If the whites were all petty-bourgeoisie, and the Blacks were all proletarians led by a still live and politically sane Huey Newton, things would be a lot different and easier around here and probably there'd be no debate. However, the MLK followers like PLP and RCP=U$A are attacking the one relative advantage the international proletariat has in North Amerika--the opposition of the oppressed nationalities to many imperialist wars including Iraq where a majority of Blacks opposed it from before the beginning. Now come the MLK followers to say oppressed nationalities should merge with their alleged class brethren among the whites and seal the deal on becoming full-fledged oppressor nation people themselves. That will only dilute Black opposition to imperialism. After September 11th, the imperialists were able to rally even Blacks on a multiracial basis for a bloodthirsty mood, for at least a few weeks. We should be clear that that is where the MLK line really leads to--a unity of the empire, a unity of exploiters. It cannot do otherwise, because it lacks a material basis for coming to a revolutionary conclusion in unity with mythological white "workers." It's not just Colin Powell or Condoleezza Rice. Those are obvious Black imperialists. There is also the treacherous Black bourgeoisie trying to destroy the original revolutionary content of hip- hop. And of course, there is a Black petty- bourgeoisie. In Stalin's day, there was a basis for calling for a Black Belt Republic to address Black sharecroppers' needs. Farmers were the plurality of Blacks. Although there continue to be pockets of virtually slave Black labor in agriculture and more in prisons, Blacks substantially industrialized with World War II. The Black Panther leadership eventually settled on the idea that Blacks with a few months of industrial work a year could be labor aristocracy or they could be lumpen. It's not so much that the Black Panthers thought there was a great Black proletariat. They simply tended to see great potential in the Black lumpen and Huey Newton believed it would become the majority. When we look at the percentage of Black men processed through the u.$. prison system, and how that has grown since his prediction, we can't say he's been proven wrong. England's lumpen is no where near the size of the u.$. one, but it is also large relative to Europe. The fire for revolution in England needs to be found among the lumpen, oppressed nationalities, youth and intellectuals first. As you also pointed out, not being exploited doesn't mean someone is not nationally oppressed. The Black petty-bourgeoisie feels sharply the injustices of the system, and we should seek to fan that resentment as much as possible, as far as it will go. The empire will succeed in lining up some Black bourgeois forces, but Huey Newton already proved we can rip away the plurality of Blacks from any alignment with imperialism. Since the days of Huey Newton, Blacks have become even more polarized, with more lumpenized by the state than Huey Newton's day but more advancing in labor aristocracy demands also. Mao himself said that the lumpen, youth and intellectuals were the first to enter the revolutionary stage and the workers and peasants merely finished the play, because they have the muscle to do so. We at MIM see ourselves taking Huey Newton's advice. We are at least going to put the lumpen, youth and some intellectuals on the revolutionary stage. Then MIM would say we are going to need some heavy reinforcements from the Third World workers and peasants for the joint dictatorship of the proletariat of the oppressed nations to handle the more than 200 million exploiters here. The easiest reinforcements to reach come from Latin America, and that is why we stress the Aztl&a acute;n national struggle. As to when the white proletariat disappeared, Sakai has said there never was one. There is some sense to that because the "settlers" always had a kind of petty-bourgeois status as Marx pointed out. Through the generations, whites have handed down wealth in land or equivalent inheritances robbed from First Nations and denied to Blacks. Although there are some writers that say the "Homestead Act" did not apply for all whites, we believed they missed the point about general white access to First Nation land and we have to account for the fact that there will always be a white lumpen as well. Because whites used to be dominated by farm and industrial sector work, we said that we understand why the CP-USA organized the CIO in the Depression and tried that road, but ultimately the CP-USA succeeded in eliminating the white proletariat with the help of FDR and World War II. We feel assured in saying so now that we know Stalin briefly approved theses saying that Amerikkkans had no industrial proletariat before World War II. The Amerikan victory in World War II and all the global spoils that went with that were key to labor aristocracy domination and as you noted, the French "workers" proved they had "made it" in 1968, and that they were going to be every bit as parasitic as Amerikkkans. Another important date is the 1980 Census which showed that more than half of U.$. whites had white- collar jobs. The point is that one could disagree on the cut-off date, but the evidence has done nothing but pile up since World War II. It would be an interesting field for writers to do analyses of surplus-value in 1930 to see if Sakai were right, but MIM has not done them.