[I found the following on the website discussing the "RCP-USA"'s draft programme, http://2changetheworld.info in the "Road to Revolution" section titled "Re: The RCP's Analysis of the Working Class is a Leninist Position Posted by: QED on 2002-10-06 18:44"] I think this is an important point on this whole question: {from lenin}: "Neither we nor anyone else can calculate precisely what portion of the proletariat is following and will follow the social-chauvinists and opportunists. This will be revealed only by the struggle, it will be definitely decided only by the socialist revolution. But we know for certain that the "defenders of the fatherland" in the imperialist war represent only a minority. It is worth asking, why did Lenin think it would only be known through actual events -- and the MIM posters think that they already know (and can dismiss) the majority of the working class? It is a rather deep difference. And reveals a difference in method and orientation. Are we trying to figure out how to make revolution, or trying to explain our pessimism and passivity by saying it is not possible? ************************************************** maoist3@yahoo.com replies for the Maoist Internationalist Movement: Look how they try to use Lenin to justify not knowing their own concrete conditions. They proceed by assuming that which has to be proved. The Lenin quote says "proletariat," not "labor aristocracy," but if you don't know what is proletariat and labor aristocracy, of course you aren't going to be able to deal with Lenin! Let's also check their irresponsible quotes from Lenin using the word "minority." "Minority" of what. The "RCP-USA" wants you to assume that the exploiters can never be a majority within a country--for what reason they opportunistically do not give. Of course such a thing is not to be found in Lenin, but it does nicely mirror social-democracy's strategy-first, class-structure -second approach. Also notice that the above is talking about political action--the following of leaders. It is not talking about the class structure itself. When the "RCP-USA" talks about the above quote as a substitute for analysis of the class structure, the effect is to say that the proletarian leaders should LIE about the existence of a nine digit figure of people, when no amount of lying or political cleverness by a party can alter the economic conditions of a nine digit figure of people. In fact, whatever leaders any given proletarian does follow, the task of the proletarian leaders is to point toward the elimination of parasitic conditions of the North Amerikan majority--before that majority can possibly participate in the construction of socialism. To hasten revolution in the imperialist countries, given the conditions, the fastest thing would be to seize power to prepare the material basis for socialism, because no tactics or strategy can wish away the economic facts of life for a nine-digit figure of people. That is a separate question--a goal question-- from the question of what people are actually going to do in the midst of struggle. As Marx pointed out in the "Communist Manifesto" even a portion of the bourgeoisie will follow the proletarian leaders. Contrary to all the capitulationist and pragmatist rot from the "RCP," Marx did NOT mean to say therefore we cater to the bourgeoisie! It's not an "optimism" or "pessimism" thing. It's science. It could be that the "RCP-USA" only writes theoretical articles and "programs" to justify their own members' getting jazzed up for another right opportunist or ultra-left stunt to awaken a non-existent proletariat. In our view, Marx, Lenin and Mao did not write about class structures for that reason. It's not simply what is tactically going to give people the highest high on their revolutionometer, because without direction energy is wasted. Descriptions of class structures should not be written with the narrow goal of suiting the subjective mental needs of a few comrades. That is sectarianism. Descriptions of class structures should be written to help explain what is going to have to be done. The "RCP-USA" does not write about that for the simple reason that it wants to make sure that the Amerikkkan majority continues to live a lifestyle of parasitism after the future social-imperialist revolution led by the "RCP- USA." The "RCP-USA" uses this quote from Lenin over and over again in order to justify their not knowing and not caring how much surplus-value Amerikkkan imperialism is extracting and from where. It is simply impermissible for any proletarian party within U.$. borders and DOES reveal a vast gap in method as the "RCP" supporter QED said. Yes, you may post this as official MIM view of the "RCP-USA" take, and you may post it anywhere.