> I have read last month's postings with interest. As a point of 
> information I am not familiar with the RCP-USA line, but from what 
I 
> know of them I wouldn't wish to be linked to them in any way.
> 
> However, given that organisations, or collectivities of groups 
such 
> as MIM exist in imperialist countries, they must have some idea of 
> what kind of work can be done here and now. Activists are present 
in 
> imperialist countries, whether you believe a proletariat to exist 
or 
> not (I am not American so I am not directly familiar with the 
> situation there, but I can assure you that there is a proletariat 
in 
> Europe and that capitalism can and does extract surplus value from 
> said proletariat: sweat shops may exist in the "Third World" but 
they 
> are also very much active in the dead heart of imperialism - have 
you 
> ever seen the statistics on average working class earnings in 
> Southern Wales for instance, or Northern Ireland? - what about the 
> relative difference in prices, chronic housing shortages, the 
upsurge 

maoist3@yahoo.com replies for MIM:
We've already said there is a white proletariat in the war-torn
Six Counties many times. The reason some are moving to abandon
armed struggle, however, is the growing influx of surplus-value
from outside Ireland, arranged consciously by the imperialists.

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/bookstore/books/whitenation/ignatie
v.html is just one related article.


> in working class tuberculosis in children and so on and so on) and 
to 
> even contemplate having a political organisation such as yours, 
you 
> must have some idea of what it is you expect them to do!

maoist3@yahoo.com replies for MIM:
We expect them to get out there and campaign. There is no lack of 
issues.

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/agitation/

> 
> Again I must ask what you believe is the historical task of 
> poltically aware activists in imperialist countries? How can they 
> assist in national liberation and anti-imperialist struggles in 
> "Third World" countries for instance, and what work must they do 
at 
> 'home'?

maoist3@yahoo.com replies for the Maoist Internationalist Movement:
The above is what we want people to do. In addition our
principal task is to "create public opinion and the independent
institutions of the oppressed to seize power." Our most determined
activists distribute thousands of newspapers a month.

That newspaper, MIM Notes, also has more campaigning 
(not for office) in it:

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/mn/index.html


> 
> I accept that imperialism, as the highest (and last) form of 
> capitalism has profoundly altered the world stage, and lead 
political 
> struggle onto a more thoroughly global level than at any time in 
the 
> past, but the effects of imperialism are not as black and white as 
> you seem to suggest (so to speak) - there is still a 'home' 
> imperialism of exploited labour, and despite the MIM line I still 
> think there is work to be done right here.

maoist3@yahoo.com replies for MIM: Why not do this in reverse?
Ask us about a campaign and whether we support it?

I warn you in advance that we believe there is an exploited
proletariat in E. Europe and we have not spoken much
about Spain, Portugal or Greece.

> 
> To suggest that supporting oppressed and exploited classes in 
> imperialist countries is "Menshevik" is simply bizarre, and quite 
a-
> historical (surely the major fault with Menshevism was economism 
and 
> political tailism/opportunism in a specifically pre-capitalist 
> context - what has it got to do with the current argument?). In 

maoist3@yahoo.com replies: As the root of the word "economism" 
implies, there are those who do not know what to do without
fighting for reformist economic demands--in this case, be they
of whatever class character. People in such a straight-jacket
are going to set back the international proletariat.

> answer to my first email aftersorrowcomesjoy suggested you had 
> statistics backing up your claim that surplus value is not 
extracted 
> from workers in imperialist countries: could you post me a link? I 
> have to say that if I were running a business I would think it 
very 
> strange to pay a worker as much or more than s/he produces. Surely 
no 
> business could run on this line. Surplus value must be extracted 
for 
> the capitalist to make any profit at all. That is Marxism!
> 
> For socialism, for communism

maoist3@yahoo.com replies for MIM: If you read our publications
or previous articles, (and there is over 2 gigabytes on our website) 
you will find that we've answered this question
a few times before as well. While it's fine to find the source
of surplus-value, and that is after all the most important
secret of capitalism, it does not mean that there is no petty-
bourgeoisie. It only means that MIM has asked a question about people
who are NOT exploited, because people who were historically
exploited were bought off and became exploiters. This can be
measured by luxury consumption as MIM has already pointed out in this
newsgroup.

Surplus-value is extracted all right, and that is what the
other parties ignore--extracted overwhelmingly in the Third World.
The "RCP-USA" just got done accusing us of ignoring the poor,
but you won't find in their work anywhere a reference to the fact
of the capitalist exploitation in China that exploded since
1976 and increased the u$a's parasitic existence. The "RCP-USA"
made those millions of workers in China disappear while talking
about "poor" Amerikkkan parasites living off those Chinese workers.

Surplus-value is realized in the First World. If I were to
follow the logic of your thought on the exploited, I would have to
reason that there is only one capitalist left in the world and 
everyone else is proletariat. That's not what Marx was saying.
The capitalists attempt to become the sole capitalist of course,
but no single one gets what s/he wants, thus far in history. One 
reason is that thus far the capitalist needs much assistance in 
realizing surplus-value and his/her partners take their cuts.

As I said in message 1203, with regard to surplus-value
calculations:
" We did that in MIM Theory #1.
We had a follow-up to some theory aspects of that in MT#2/3.
There was a little more in MT#4 and MT#7.
MIM Theory #10 was again, like MIM Theory #1 all about
the labor aristocracy and again included articles on how you can
account for the surplus-value. That was already 1996, six years ago 
with no parallel investigation by the "RCP-USA."
Finally, we went so far as to put a whole book online on the subject 
and there is no "RCP-USA" response. 

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/mt/imp97/index.html "

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/mt/

Of course, that leaves out that MIM has distributed hundreds
of copies of J. Sakai's "Settlers: The Mythology of the 
White Proletariat" and H.W. Edwards's Labor Aristocracy: Mass Base 
for Social Democracy. In particular, Sakai's work is a work of
history, but without a Leninist position in all regards, especially 
in attitudes towards parties. For those who did not gather
the truth from Sakai's work, or who were rocked but not pushed over 
the edge, MIM did a little supplemental investigation with Lenin, 
the Comintern and today's economic realities--particularly, where
the surplus-value comes from today that makes those settlers
an enemy petty-bourgeoisie.

One last point, from time to time, we may get someone on this
list who is not a joker or provocateur. We apologize in advance,
because we spend a lot of time on this list throwing out practical
jokers and sorting out various spammers. Those of us who are serious
will continue forward with our work and study regardless.